tarq. Got to say, you seem to have aged and gone a bit eccentric in your latest photo over at Okapi - but I just thought id let you know that there are rendering errors in your frontpage when using Firefox on a PC.
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Well you are so erudite and learned Mr T so difficult for us to match up to your blogging abilities.

What do your readers make of this Hadith:-

‘The Hour will not come until the Muslims fight the
Jews. The Muslims will slay them, until the Jew conceals himself behind rocks and trees. The rock or the tree will
say, “O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, so come and slay him” - except for the thornbush,
since it is a tree of the Jews’ (Muslim, Fitan 84).

Used to like trees and rocks before I read this - they make me a bit nervous now.(joking emoticon)

Hi Paul. How are you?

I suppose what the readers make of it will depend on their overall belief system and mindset. If they are of the fundie persuasion they will have a different view to those of a more atheistic disposition.

Islamophobia is a great uniter though so there may not be too many differing opinions. I don’t know - perhaps we’ll find out…

Meanwhile, as to me, I tend to view many of the hadith as the product of limited and degenerate minds. Certainly I can think of numerous ones that are as insane as anything in the Evangelical Rapturist Canon: the idea that painters are worse sinners than murderers and they should be killed because they try to create life for example. This is most likely the babblings of a lunatic - such characters are quite common in all religious traditions unfortunately.

Having said that, it may actually be an attempt at prediction rather than an injunction. I tend to think it is. There are similar ideas in the Christian Apocalyptic writings which of course, also see much nastiness in store for the Jews at the end times.

I think that this hadith is in answer to a question regarding when the end of the world will come - but as the end of the world seems likely to have a symbiotic link with deforestation and the end of trees en masse, perhaps there is not so much to fear :D

Hi Tarq, am just fine although Britain is bogged down with regulatory bodies one of which impinges on me more than I would like. They are trying to turn us into various versions of a Borg society in my opinion.

Strangely enough although had heard this Hadith many years ago and dismissed it as probably unreliable or made up. However recently came across it in of all places the writings of Muhyiddin Ibn al Arabi. Page 10 of excerpt from the Futuhat translated by William Chittick here http://ibnarabisociety.org/articles/futuhat_317.pdf page 10.

Now Messrs Hirtenstein and Nottcutt in their introduction to the Mishkat al Anwar (Divine Sayings) of Ibn’Arabi say that throughout his lifetime he was noted as a reliable transmitter of Hadith.

If one can imagine instead of this Hadith there was one that said . On that Day Jews, Christians and Muslims will all sit together in peace and Praise of God then surely the World would be vastly different today.

It is difficult to distinguish between cause and effect in Prophecies.

Strange - doesn’t seem like the sort of thing ibn Arabi would propagate but who knows? It is definitely there.

It is definitely problematic - as usal Chittick sheds no light at all.

Sorry for the late response, I just read this post today

Futuhat was written for 13th century Andalusian audience, in a culture where people of 3 great religion sat side by side, an era where major scientific and philosopical works of the 3 great religions were produced and transmitted. Ibn Arabi probably tried to give some illustration on what he was trying to explain. Sufi tales, analogies and metaphores don’t have to be true (and/or comes from reliable sources) to be suitable as teaching instrument. I imagined if I were an Andalusian Jew in that period, and reading that part of Futuhat, I would probably more concerned about what the “intrinsic life” Ibn Arabi was talking about, rather than worrying about conspiracing trees and Moslem who would slay me one (distant) day ;-p. Because at that peaceful time, even the thought of religious war was probably unimaginable.

I haven’t read the whole Futuhat myself (originally consists of thousands of pages in Arabic, supposed to be an encyclopedia of inner knowledge that integrated the three mystical traditions). But I would assume it would serve best the 13th century Andalusian audience. ).

Peace.
(I have to say that is one of the funniest hadith I’ve ever encountered, though. You better start planting as many thorn bush as possible, Paul!:-p)

Matahari

Hi Matahari. Its a while since you’ve posted.

Have no wish to flout the Will of the All-Powerful as well as being a rather fruitless occupation.

Thornbushes wouldn’t enhance my garden anyway.

It was more the effect that such Hadith have on impressionable minds that I was commenting on to counter-balance the rather IMO foamy at the mouth posting by Segovius about the Catholic Church.

Best Wishes

Paul

Have received this as a message of a new blog from Matahari but does not appear to have come up on the site so am posting it on Matahari’s behalf.

Dear Paul,

most “muslim” scholars disregard any hadith that contradicts the Quran, regardless who quoted it. That particular hadith sounds most absurd compare to this very verse (this also to answer your wish if there was any peace hadith. I give you even better than hadith! ) ):

Quran 2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith, as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

So far I haven’t found comparable verse in any other holy books that guarantee salvation for ALL RELIGIONS (Quran spesifically says that include Jews, Christians, Sabians, all who believe in God and the last day).

(if you interested in peace hadiths, check this out:
http://www.sufism.org/society/articles/PeaceHadith.htm
http://www.sufism.org/society/hadith.html)

Not sure, why Ibn Arabi decided to use the hadith in his illustration, most people don’t understand sufis anyway. Even in muslim world, many consider Ibn Arabi as unbeliever, especially with his idea of wahdatul wujud (unity of being).  His statement like “Al-`Abdu Rabbun Warrabbu `Abdun” (the slave is the Lord and the Lord is the slave) is not very popular among “muslims” and enough to call him a heretic.

I remember more than 15 years ago when tassawuf become quite an interest in my country, there was a big polemic in mass media regarding Ibn Arabi’s statement (forgot, was it in Fusus or Futuhat) that iblis (satan) is a servant of God who hold the highest “tawhid” (central belief in Islam, of the oneness of God). Didn’t he refuse to prostate before Adam, because one is not supposed to prostate before anyone but God? It was quite a controversial topic, stating that the devil was a true believer is considered blasphemy in Islam. You see, even “muslims” are offended by Ibn Arabi.

But of course, like Junaid said (in Attar’s Recapitulation of the Friends of God), Iblis was a liar because if he was really a good servant of God, he would obey God’s command, even when the command was to prostate before a man. I would think Ibn Arabi threw the idea as a teaching tool, to stimulate our anylitical thinking and to question our conditioned beliefs.

That hadith, too, I would think he used it as teaching tool, to see whether we dare to question it. And yes, I dare to question it, even it was Ibn Arabi who quoted it. It is absurd, let alone to compare it with Quran, but even with other hadith shahih such as : “A perfect Muslim is one from whose tongue and hands mankind is safe”.

So Paul, assuming at the end of day those people who call themselves muslims really true muslims , you shall have no fear, and neither shall you grieve....) ( you wouldn’t need those thornbushes ) )

peace, )
Matahari

Dear Matahari

Thank you for these beautiful Hadith which certainly give a different picture of Islam and the Prophet to the one we in the West are often presented with and incidentally one which I also have to some extent been conditioned by. Have myself recently been reading a beautiful collection of Hadith Kudsi collected by Ibn’al Arabi which are a joy to read and contemplate.

Regarding Iblis believe that quite a bit is said in the Fusus in the chapter on Adam (Peace be upon him) but not the bit about him being a true servant of God so don’t know the source for this. In fact it was more akin to Junayd’s statement than anything else. Do not have a copy of the Fusus to quote although have just recently decided to add it to my collection. Difficulty is there are now 4 or five good translations and commentaries and am not sure which one to get.

This businesss of the end of days or Day of Reckoning. That is a fundamental tenet of Muslim belief is it not? Yet I have no real understanding of what it means. Can anybody say anything enlightening on the subject?

Really my comment on the other Hadith was based on the fact that I have met people who take it very seriously and have no doubt that it is these sort of Hadith that Jihadists quote rather than the one’s from Sufi.org.

Kindest Regards

Paul