Would you be prepared to debate this issue with me and, if so, where? This comment thread here is not really suitable, a forum would be best.

I don’t believe there are really good debating arenas, even here on the web. I’m a non-Muslim and I’m frankly too scared to debate “out in the open”. I would only do it anonymously, here on the web. I think that’s sad and it never happened before the Rushdie affair. I’ve yet to meet a Muslim who doesn’t approve, in principal, of the fatwah against him (although the moderates will say a death sentence was taking it too far).

I disagree with almost all of your points.

We could try: Debate forum at free2code.net
(I moderate the Religion forum there but not the Debate one.)

I’m prepared to debate here, however, if no alternative place can be found.
-----

Hi Arizona

Firstly, my apologies for not replying to your earlier comment - keep meaning to catch up on a lot of things but have been inundated with work as we are starting a new design business.

I share your feelings about ‘debating arenas’. It would be good to try to create one though like you, I am not too optimistic.

But I’m quite happy to discuss this, thanks for the invite - I appreciate it. Perhaps that forum is the best place. I’ve registered and seen your thread and will definitely post on it when some others have joined in. Also I would encourage anyone else here interested in these issues to talk about it with us if they like.

In the above post, which bit do you disagree with most?

The following are random thoughts not necessarily logically connected on the topic.

The cartoon is being replied to with the sort of reaction that is strangely validating the message of the cartoon just look at the placards depicted of the demonstrators in London. Yet every Surah of the Koran bar 1 or 2 begins In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the All Merciful. and the Koran advise it is better to forgive than to seek revenge.

When I was a child about 5 or 6 years of age I was greatly taken with the story about the sun and the wind having a competition to see who could get a man to take off his coat. The more the wind blew the tighter the man wrapped his coat around him but as the sun gently shone the man happily unbuttoned his coat. Similarly I was listening to a debate on the radio as to whether black people in Britain should follow the path of M L King in attaining their “rights” or that of Malcolm X.

What seems to be lacking is Good-Will whether from one side or the other.

Whilst your very well researched article demonstrated that the prohibition on human images in Islam is not absolute most Muslims round the world probably believe that it is.

Have always been awe-stricken by the description of how the great Sufi Ibn’Al Arabi came to writehis books a sort of Divinely inspired automatic writing. How does this fit in in the world of freedom of speech?

Hi Paul - thanks for your post. Hope you are well (I’ll pop by your webplace a little later).

Firstly I must say that I am getting a bit depressed (I think that is the right word) at the ‘aura’ surrounding this topic and the type of noise it is generating.

Nobody is more in favour of free speech than me. All I am saying is two things: firstly, we have far less than we think and even that is limited to certain parameters and their are penalties attached and second, this issue (imho) is not about free speech.

The issue to me is whether or not: a) the alleged free speech tells the truth (certainly equating Muhammad with the extremists who have hijacked Islam is not) and whether or not debate can take place without abuse.

Clearly the cartoons failed on both accounts. They were untrue (no reason to start threatening anyone but hey, that’s what extremists do and we all know they are out there - no big shock) and also they have stifled debate.

For example - on various forums now the hate is almost palpable and I think the time where people can be ‘reasonable’ about Islam is probably approaching it’s end. But nothing exists in isolation and that just means that people are becoming more unreasonable.

It was always the extremist’s objective. Until this present issue I didn’t take them seriously - no I suspect they have won. They have brought us to their level in many ways.

Not sure what you mean about Ibn Arabi but I think I will be doing a lot more reading of him than posting in future probably. The way of the monk is starting to look quite attractive!

Hi Segovius,

Thanks for registering and at least having a go at the Debate forum I suggested. I can see that you have no taste for the kind of confrontation that has arisen there.

I’ve tried to enter Muslim forums and have been thrown out, simply obliterated without warning. That or I get shadowed with vile posts accusing me of insanity.

At places like FaithFreedom.org, the Muslims are quickly devastated and laughed at, for very good reason since their arguments are usually so pathetic.

The reality is that Islam has allowed intellectual debate to wither and Muslims are simply not equipped for the kind of cultural battle that is afoot. This is why they are left with no alternative but to burn down buildings and murder publishers, translators and filmmakers.

I will take just one point from your original post: One cannot answer a cartoon.

That is nonsense. You can answer a cartoon with an answering cartoon. It is a legitimate arena of comment and non-verbal debate. Yes, cartoons make assertions but how is that different from the Quran? Mohammad made the assertion that he had received communications from God. How does one “answer” that? You must know that people who tried to disagree were simply murdered. Criticism of Islam was not tolerated from Day 1.

I’m sorry, Segovius, but you sound so pathetically hypocritical and ignorant when you whinge like that over these cartoons. I understand that you’re a relatively “new” Muslim (not brought up as one but converted) but the Muslim mentality has already infected you. Muslim extremists have that mentality in extreme form, that is all. You have it in a watered-down or not yet fully developed form.

Yes, stick with the Sufis. They went beyond Islam and that’s where I advise you to go if you want to retain any sanity. Islam as an end in itself is dead.

Thanks for your comments Arizona - I wish you well on your path and I hope you find what it is you seek.

My best wishes to you also, Segovius, no personal animosity intended.

None taken - and feel free to comment or post whatever, whenever. I’ll definitely keep reading your blog!

I do believe we’re headed in the same direction. Maybe we just have a different ‘outwardness’.

Thanks, Segovius, and likewise.

Have you seen the latest Arab-European League cartoon “reply” to the Danish cartoons: AEL will launch Cartoon campaign

It’s quite sickening. I know the AEL doesn’t represent Islam but it sure speaks for a lot of Muslims.

Obviously you have forgoten to mention that there is a difference between freedom of speech and hate crimes....

Arizona, I haven’t seen these cartoons because the server is down on the link. Is it ‘morally’ worse than the Danish? The same? Why?

People seem to think that free speech somehow confers the duty to exercise it - even if it is offensive. Ignoring the wider issue of whether free speech exists or not (perhaps maybe it does - perhaps it is only actually debate that is stifled) there is no duty to be offensive.

I haven’t seen these AEL cartoons - if they are offensive I condemn them. If they are not I condemn them also. We do not need a response in kind as some sort of ‘right’.

But I feel I need to state things again: my objection to the original cartoons is not a religious one. Depict Muhammad all you like - after all 1500 years of Islamic art has done the same thing. Also it is not - and cannot be - blasphemous as blasphemy applies only to God.

My objection is that it was a) a deliberate act to cause trouble and b) something that increases general stupidity. It is actually stupidity that I am against here. I have my own little war on it. You could call it ‘sleep’ but it is more willful than that - and more dangerous.

Any reader of this blog will know that I spend a good deal of time ranting against what I call ‘literalists’. Actually I mean Islamists, extremists and jihadists.

I do not mean Muslims. But then I cannot account for what arises in peoples mind when they here the word ‘Muslim’. I can only account for what arises in mine.

To clarify: there may come a time - and soon for all I know - when all people who call themselves Muslims are extremists. I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not.

The above statement will still hold true. Why? Because a Muslim is someone who is submitted to God and not someone submitted to evil. By their fruits you shall know them - and if all the fruits are rotten (or even some) it does not mean that no un-rotten fruit ever existed.

That sort of view is what I mean by stupidity. It is part of self-development to adjust it.

If I knew anything about Haikus would writeone on the lines of

Throw pebble into pool
Ripples form
Stillness follows

Hi Segovius,
I’ve used this morning’s blog to reply to you at least in part:
never submitting to delusion

Free speech does bring with it a duty to exercise it and, if it cannot be used for healthy confrontation, then it is quite useless.

Yes, I agree. Healthy would be the operative word imo.

I like your Rumi poem - do you speak Farsi?

Btw, did you ever consider that the poet is describing his previously wayward state in a sorrowful way rather than celebrating it as you seem to understand it?

I think you clearly have issues with Islam Arizona - that’s fair enough, why not? No problems. But whatever you do, keep an open mind - truth can manifest anywhere and if you are really looking for it you wouldn’t want to miss it because you are so sure it’s not worth looking somewhere.

All of us know far less than we imagine we do about almost everything.

Btw Arizona, I remembered this from the Masnavi:

Quit thy wealth, even if it be the realm of Saba; Thou wilt find many realms not of this earth. What thou callest a throne is only a prison; Thou thinkest thyself enthroned, but art outside the door. Thou hast no sovereignty over thine own passions, How canst thou turn away good and evil? Thy hair turns white without thy concurrence, Take shame for thy evil passions. Whoso bows his head to the King of Kings Will receive a hundred kingdoms not of this world; But the delight of bowing down before God Will seem sweeter to thee than countless glories.

Personally I have no doubt Rumi was a Muslim - as were all classical Sufis - but then again I have no fixed ideas that would make me find this unacceptable. Of course a Muslim is not necessarily a Sufi and a Sufi is not necessarily a Muslim but you get the picture.

This is a good site for info on Rumi and Islam if you are interested - something tells me you won’t like it though so I’ll quote some of it below just in case you don’t make it over there!

Rumi must have memorized much or all of the Holy Qur’an when he was young, because the Mathnawi and his other poetry are filled
with direct quotes in Arabic, Persian paraphrases, and references to
Qur’anic verses. He belonged to the Hanafi school of Islamic law,
one of the four orthodox legal traditions of the Sunni branch of
Islam.

Rumi’s first sufi master, Sayyid Burhânu ‘d-dîn Termezî, was his
father’s leading sufi disciple who came to Anatolia after hearing of
the death of Rumi’s father. Rumi was his sufi disciple for ten years,
during part of which he was sent to Syria to obtain a traditional
Islamic education.

In a biography of Rumi, written by a disciple of Rumi’s grandson,
Aflâkî, along with many miracle stories, are many accounts of how
Rumi prayed the five daily ritual Islamic prayers, fasted during the
month of Ramadan, and did many extended voluntary fasts. And
there are many accounts in which he voiced traditional Islamic
beliefs on many topics.

Aflaki’s treatise is available from the Octagon Press btw under the title of ‘One Hundred Tales of Wisdom’. It is a very interesting read.

Omar Ali Shah also has a lot to say on the subject of Islam and it’s relationship to Sufism. He gave a lecture on Fundamentalism and the Sufi attitude towards it once. I might quote some of it at some point if I can find it. I have it somewhere.

The word confront used by Arizona is a hard word already suggesting opposition and war. We are very taken up in the West with rational argument and logical confrontation. As he rightly says Free Speech is quite useless and indeed has very little value. There is a saying of Jesus I believe that it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles one but that which comes out. Also think something similar from the Prophet Mohammed. True religion invites us to look at the world in a more unitive way.

Hi Segovius,

I don’t read Farsi, no. I rely on the excellent translations of those who do.

You’re quite correct: the poem in question could be interpreted as you have done. And also in the way that I have done.

I’m well acquainted with the dar-al-masnavi.org website as I use it for comparative translations and contrasting insights.

Re the Masnavi quote: Of course, Rumi would recommend bowing down to God and of course, Rumi was a good Muslim. However, the sense of all these words is not fixed and submission in one instance might be foolish while in another wise.

I keep hearing Muslims talk about what is a “true Muslim”. Some would say, quite passionately, that a true Muslim will kill anyone who disparages Mohammad. Not censure alone, but kill. And they could use the Sunan Abu-Dawud to justify it firmly on legal grounds. You wouldn’t do that, would you? I mean, kill someone saying their mind on Mo.

I’m quite certain Rumi would not have killed on such a pretext and, in that sense, he was not a “true Muslim”. I’m very very confident, from reading him, that Shams did not but he did escape from being murdered for what he did think of Islam. He veiled it all very carefully.

I’m happy to continue this discussion through your next post on extremism. I’m pretty confident you won’t threaten to kill me for anything I might say.

To Paul:

I’m a woman and I have a strong feeling of identification with the woman depicted in the above tale from Abu-Dawud as well as the woman in the following tale #4349. I have not the slightest qualm about carrying on a war of words. I don’t approve of translating discussion to the spilling of blood as Muslims have been taught to do from day 1.

I agree that true religion invites us to look at the world in a more unitive way but it was Jesus that advised that we love our enemies and it was Mohammad who instructed his followers to trust no kafir but rather to slay them.

I can think of no more divisive assertion than al-Fatihah. You really have to seek out extraordinarily weird occult sects or Satanic cults before you can find anything to match it. I’m sure that many a Muslim child is reassured when its mother sings it to sleep with it but it sounds very very different to a kafir living in the 21st century.

HI Arizona

I was thinking yesterday that if we keep discussing like this it might be worth making a special comment-page for it and it could be ongoing indefinitely - perhaps forever. A secret thread sort of thing - only it wouldn’t be secret and there would be no thread. And anyone could join in. Let me know if this is something you might be interested in.

As to this lat comment, I’ll say a few things:

I keep hearing Muslims talk about what is a “true Muslim”. Some would say, quite passionately, that a true Muslim will kill anyone who disparages Mohammad.

No doubt. There are dickheads everywhere. They’ll come for me before you and I don’t plan on shuffling off this mortal coil just yet so if it comes to a ruck you’ll have me onside if I’m in the vicinity.

I’m more interested in what you might call the ‘societal framework’ of this though. I’ve no doubt you keep hearing it - I do too. I’ve also no doubt it is actually there.

But there are other things that are there too - and you don’t ever hear them - let alone keep hearing them. I’m interested in why. Who controls what we ‘keep hearing’? What is their agenda?

The fact is though that that which is hate is not from God - that which is from God is never hate.

I’m sure you can agree on that. Our only disagreement has ever been whether Muhammad was ‘from God’ in this sense or not - whether he was a hater in fact. Obviously imo all the founders of religions were Sufis (or the equivalent under different names) and it was later that the religion deteriorated.

That has always been my argument: that the cartoons were wrong to depict Muhammad in that way because they are projecting the activities of alter Muslims backwards - as you do too.

This seems to me (not to bring racism in but purely as an analogy) akin to the old ‘I was mugged by a black man so all black men are muggers’ sort of idea that is a quite common cause of much trouble.

And they could use the Sunan Abu-Dawud to justify it firmly on legal grounds.

Yes they do. And the Sufis and moderate Muslims use other traditions that show forgiveness and non-violence.

I guess it’s as simple as you can choose which expresses your inwardness most. If you look for evil you will surely find it anywhere. The same is true for goodness, truth and God.

You wouldn’t do that, would you? I mean, kill someone saying their mind on Mo.

No, I only kill people who disparage the Welsh rugby team. And that’s only when we lose to England so I might be ok.....

PS, I know your other comments were to Paul but I am surprised about the fatiha. Personally I have always found it one of the most mystical Sufic passages of the Qur’an.

Different strokes I guess.

I’d be happy to partake in a discussion on a special thread and I’m honoured that you deem it worth the effort of arranging.

I have no idea who controls what we keep hearing nor what is their agenda. My guess is that it is people who have stuff (power especially) and want to - and can - hold on to it.

I can’t agree about the hate not coming from God. Everything, absolutely everything, comes from God. I’m sick of poor humanity (or, intrapsychically, the poor ego) being blamed for everything that is “bad”. God made us how we are and God put hate into our hearts every bit as much as She put love there.

I see the Quran as an expression of Mo’s personality and it is full of hate. It is as if he somehow swallowed the Book of Revelation and then regurgitated it in a series of variations on the one theme.

I would agree that founders of religion have had profound religious experiences but that would include the idiot that started scientology and many many more. Humanity has failed, as yet, to develop adequate yardsticks to measure the value or merit of any religious pronouncements. Like lost lambs we hope that the religion with the largest numbers or the most powerful allies or the greatest concentration of genius (etc, etc) is the right one. We go on such silly measures because we have no others.

I have yet to find any religious merit to Islam. I’ve challenged Muslims to demonstrate such merit to me. I’ve asked for a single original spiritual or even poetical insight from out of the Quran. (I’ve been sent to that silly verse about lamps but no one so far, apart from Jung, has pointed me to the Khidr story.) Sometimes Rumi throws his stardust onto a passage and lights it up but I still suspect it’s only his stardust.

Given Islam’s coercive nature and its legalistic and brutal attitude toward dissent and apostasy, its large following and respectable age fail as pointers to merit. It is staggering, in comparison, how many have converted to Christianity which is a frankly ludicrous creed with a pathetic hero god limply suffering on a cross.

Which religions have deteriorated and how? There are different forms of deterioration and different understandings of its sense. A Wahhabi will define it differently from a Unitarian Universalist.

You say that the cartoons project the activities of later Muslims backwards and that I do likewise. I cannot speak for the cartoonists but I, like many in the West, are far better acquainted with Islam now than we were 10 years ago. Not simply because we watch the news reports but because we are reading the Quran and ahadith. We have gone back to the original sources and been horrified to discover that it was all going on back then. There are plenty of hooks on which to hang our backwards looking projections.

Of course, I don’t believe all Muslims are violent. I’m a great admirer of Badshah Khan, for example, and there are and have been many many gentle Muslims. It doesn’t change the fact that I would not trust a gathering of them and I would not speak my mind to their face. It only takes the one or two to make the bunch as a whole suspect. That’s just a reality.

I’ll leave it there. This is too long already. There is plenty to discuss.

Just one last thing: I have no interest in or knowledge of Welsh or any other kind of football so I remain assured of my physical safety here. Thank you for the welcoming ethos and the gentle persuasion that has met the confrontational style that I can but acknowledge is my own special gift from God.

Good talking to you.

I’d be happy to partake in a discussion on a special thread and I’m honoured that you deem it worth the effort of arranging.

I have no idea who controls what we keep hearing nor what is their agenda. My guess is that it is people who have stuff (power especially) and want to - and can - hold on to it.

I can’t agree about the hate not coming from God. Everything, absolutely everything, comes from God. I’m sick of poor humanity (or, intrapsychically, the poor ego) being blamed for everything that is “bad”. God made us how we are and God put hate into our hearts every bit as much as She put love there.

I see the Quran as an expression of Mo’s personality and it is full of hate. It is as if he somehow swallowed the Book of Revelation and then regurgitated it in a series of variations on the one theme.

I would agree that founders of religion have had profound religious experiences but that would include the idiot that started scientology and many many more. Humanity has failed, as yet, to develop adequate yardsticks to measure the value or merit of any religious pronouncements. Like lost lambs we hope that the religion with the largest numbers or the most powerful allies or the greatest concentration of genius (etc, etc) is the right one. We go on such silly measures because we have no others.

I have yet to find any religious merit to Islam. I’ve challenged Muslims to demonstrate such merit to me. I’ve asked for a single original spiritual or even poetical insight from out of the Quran. (I’ve been sent to that silly verse about lamps but no one so far, apart from Jung, has pointed me to the Khidr story.) Sometimes Rumi throws his stardust onto a passage and lights it up but I still suspect it’s only his stardust.

Given Islam’s coercive nature and its legalistic and brutal attitude toward dissent and apostasy, its large following and respectable age fail as pointers to merit. It is staggering, in comparison, how many have converted to Christianity which is a frankly ludicrous creed with a pathetic hero god limply suffering on a cross.

Tried to add a comment but it is blocked by the spam filter. It’s late. I’ll try again tomorrow.

I’d be happy to partake in a discussion on a special thread and I’m honoured that you deem it worth the effort of arranging it.

I’ll make just one brief comment here now:

I can’t agree about the hate not coming from God. Everything, absolutely everything, comes from God. I’m sick of poor humanity (or, intrapsychically, the poor ego) being blamed for everything that is “bad”. God made us how we are and God put hate into our hearts every bit as much as She put love there.

Dear Arizona

Didn’t realise you were a woman apologies, just kept imagining a vast desert when reading your name.

Is this the Fatiha you are referring to. Explain please

1.  In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2.  Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds;
3.  Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4.  Master of the Day of Judgment.
5.  Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6.  Show us the straight way,
7.  The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

No mention of Kafirs here.

By the way in the case of Salman Rushdie did think he was given a bit of Hobson’s choice. He could either go with his beliefs and be an apostate and therefore subject to the death penalty or else be a hypocrite “for whom is the deepest hell” Think I would prefer death myself as deepest hell doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

Hiya Arizona - you keep getting caught by the filter - I will tidy up the extra ones later.

For now though I’ll just answer some of the points from them all before some disappear. Tomorrow I will set up the discussion page but it might not be till late as I have quite a bit of work on.

I can’t agree about the hate not coming from God. Everything, absolutely everything, comes from God.

In that case, surely your position is a false one. Surely one must accept God (even if He were to be ‘unjust’ - which imo He is not but even if it was the case) because He IS God.

Of course there is always the option to refuse to accept this and rebel - or to oppose God. You have this option but if this is the case with you I can’t understand why you would be interested in Sufism or mysticism....

I’m sick of poor humanity (or, intrapsychically, the poor ego) being blamed for everything that is “bad”. God made us how we are and God put hate into our hearts every bit as much as She put love there.

Well, in my understanding there is no hate or ‘bad’, there is only ‘God’. Of course we do not normally see this and as humans have the illusion of duality.

Surely this is the purpose of a mystical path - to travel from perceived duality (the unreal) to oneness (the real).

I see the Quran as an expression of Mo’s personality and it is full of hate. It is as if he somehow swallowed the Book of Revelation and then regurgitated it in a series of variations on the one theme.

Well, you can see it like that. It doesn’t mean it actually is like that. You would have to reach the end of the path (any path) and have transcended sleep’, ‘maya’ or ‘duality’ - whatever you’re happy to call it - to know.

Anyway, I wonder how you are so sure you know ‘Mo’s’ personality anyway? where did you become acquainted with it?

You would have a theological problem as well if you stepped into the academic or ecumenical arena because demonstrably Islam, in terms of laws, is a continuation of previous traditions. Primarily the Judaic but it also is technically a Christian sect rather than a new religion: that is to say it accepts Jesus as a prophet, accepts the virgin birth and the second coming.

There are many Christian sects with this exact doctrinal position.

I would agree that founders of religion have had profound religious experiences

What is a religious experience?

but that would include the idiot that started scientology

Not in my book it wouldn’t.

I have yet to find any religious merit to Islam. I’ve challenged Muslims to demonstrate such merit to me. I’ve asked for a single original spiritual or even poetical insight from out of the Quran. (I’ve been sent to that silly verse about lamps but no one so far, apart from Jung, has pointed me to the Khidr story.) Sometimes Rumi throws his stardust onto a passage and lights it up but I still suspect it’s only his stardust.

Maybe you are not at the stage where any such thing could be shown to you?

No offence but it seems to me that you would not be receptive to anything like that so how could anyone ‘show you anything’?

Btw - are you saying the Khidr story has no merit or is not spiritual or original? On what basis?

Also a very many Sufi stories - particularly Rumi - are interpretations and derivations of Qur’an and Hadith. Are you including them?

Given Islam’s coercive nature and its legalistic and brutal attitude toward dissent and apostasy, its large following and respectable age fail as pointers to merit.

Well, I have seen no such coercion in islam. I’ve seen plenty in various Muslims of one or another sect but as you know, personally I do not class that as the same thing.

It is staggering, in comparison, how many have converted to Christianity which is a frankly ludicrous creed with a pathetic hero god limply suffering on a cross.

Well, this is a bit poor really isn’t it? I’m beginning to think you hate all religion. You could surely come up with a better critique than this?

I would defend Christianity from such an attack in exactly the same way as I would defend Islam - looks like I might have to but let’s straighten this one out first.

Which religions have deteriorated and how?

All of them. By losing the original living teacher and thus subsequently having to resort to ritual and dogma as opposed to having a connection to the real.

I, like many in the West, are far better acquainted with Islam now than we were 10 years ago. Not simply because we watch the news reports but because we are reading the Quran and ahadith. We have gone back to the original sources and been horrified to discover that it was all going on back then.

You may be reading them - but what colour sunglasses are you wearing? Can you even take them off anymore?

Of course, I don’t believe all Muslims are violent.

Maybe they are. Maybe they will be one day. We are not talking about ‘Muslims’, we are talking about Islam.

It doesn’t change the fact that I would not trust a gathering of them and I would not speak my mind to their face. It only takes the one or two to make the bunch as a whole suspect. That’s just a reality.

No, it is your perception of reality.

It may or may not be an actual reality but you will never know until you have knowledge - unfortunately, to have knowledge you have to forsake belief and belief is all we have for now.

Question is - always has been - can we give up belief and see what’s really there?

Bit of a gamble, could be your own personal bete noire and the opposite of your fears - or could be what you’ve been claiming all along.

Thing is, you’re not unique. This is a position everyone is in - just different flavours and different angles. Well, do you feel lucky?

I have no interest in or knowledge of Welsh or any other kind of football so I remain assured of my physical safety here.

Rugby....grrrrrr.....rugby

Not sure if this will get through ...

I’m gonna be lazy and just cut-and-paste from my blog, in answer to Paul.

--------------------------------------------------------
From my own copy of “The Noble Qur’an” distributed freely to people attending an interfaith meeting (mainly between Christians and Muslims) during 2005:

Last two verses of the opening sura, 1:6-7
Guide us to the Straight Way.
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Translated by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
Printed by the King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an.
--------------------------------------------------------

There are, of course, other translations. I don’t identify as a Jew or Christian but when I read the Qur’an I can definitely identify as a kafir. I also admire Hindu idol worship and Buddhist icons as well ...

Arizona (sorry about all this spam filtering - will get to the bottom of it) - this is not the Fatiha as it is generally known - in fact I dispute that translation strongly.

There is no mention of the Jews or Christians - why are they in brackets?

Here is a direct translation from Wikipedia.

I really would caution you from putting ANY store whatsoever in Wahabi/Salafi circulated materials - which the one you reference certainly is.

This sect is one of the worst influences currently at large on the planet imo - they are leading human rights abusers, oppressors of women and anyone else they feel like and are (imo) in no way in tune with the spirit of Islam.

In fact, I would challenge anyone to find any example of Islamic outrages which are not traceable to the direct or indirect influence of this doctrine (and yes that means OBL, Al Qaeda, the Taleban, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas for sure).

I cannot think of any extremist groups which would not fall in this category unless one counts as-Sadr or certain other Iraqi Shi’i resistance groups which is dubious. Iran has the MEK but they are only nominally Islamic (more Marxist perhaps) and they are recently supported by the US so there status is somewhat fluid.

PS, (Arizona) I also have numerous Buddhist items littered about the house (not sure why), as well as a lot of Islamic miniature illustrations (many showing Muhammad). Some nice netsuke somewhere.

There are also a lot of Advaita books around at the moment (not mine) and I am considering reading some Nisagardatta.

Do you think they will revoke my jihadi membership?

Btw - have not forgotten about the ‘debate’ place. Might take me a few days longer. Work problems.

Just briefly, since the spam filter is still zapping me.

My first point of call with the Quran is usually Quran4 with its four translations to compare and choose from. I’d appreciate any suggestions from you as to any other or better places to go. It looks like Wikipedia used the Shakir translation.

The Saudi translation has great authority, whatever you might think of Wahhabis. The words “Jew” and “Christian” were in brackets signalling that they are not in the original but are what the original implies.

I used this translation on purpose (to suggest that I’m “not alone") because this implication is very close to the one that I see when I read these verses. I understand that I am one of the people who incur God’s wrath (simply by not being a Muslim, hence by being a kafir) and also a person who has spent my whole life going astray. I find this implication unavoidable and I find it offensive. I also find it arrogant and ignorant.

I brought up the Hinduism to point specifically to idol-worshippers who get a worse press inside the Quran than do “people of the book”.

I was trying to say that it is sensible, sane, rational, and clear-sighted of me to read the Fatiha in this way. I need but a tiny modicum of self-respect to be in a position to take offense.

If you identify as a Muslim, you’re welcome to see it as mystical and beautiful, etc. To imply that I am missing something, that I am somehow blind to its great beauty and truth, is simply to perpetuate the ignorance and arrogance that says that “my way of seeing God is right and yours is wrong”. Most religions do in fact say that, at least between the lines, but only Islam has that as its first and foremost and central platform, announced clearly and unambiguously at its outset.

*sigh* so much for trying to keep this brief, lol ...

Do take your time with the special discussion page. It will be good when it comes, I’m sure.

Wooooohooooo!!!!!  ...  I didn’t get zapped! :D

Can’t resist a “PS” on the “Wahabi/Salafi circulated materials”. This basically covers Saudi Arabia, guardians of the sacred sites, and Iran, the only theocratic (and also populist) state of Islam. Both have great authority and influence in Pakistan, the only nuclear-capable Islamic state.

Whether you like it or not, these materials represent and speak for an Islam that is real and current and very very powerful, one that I would guess is looked up to for guidance by a vast majority of Muslims. You are in a very very small minority.

The Wahhabis, I know, hate the Sufis and I’m sure the feeling is quite mutual. If you had the power, would you not ban Wahhabism as surely as Wahhabism bans Sufism? Or would Voltaire win with you?

I don’t really go for hate as such Arizona. The only thing that should be hated is hatred and all that.

I would not ban anything because I will never be in a position to ban anything because I actively seek to avoid such positions. If one comes my way coincidentally I would probably act in as inappropriate a manner as possible so as to be removed from it.

Voltaire was a bore.

Dear Arizona and Andrew

Ditto what Matahari has said.

This is what Arizona originally asked

Does anyone know of a good (or better) forum where these issues are debated? Maybe we all fall into dogmatic traps because every forum I’ve tried has been either intransigently pro-Islam or intransigently con-Islam. Where is the middle ground?

Feel that many of the comments on this site from Segovius, myself and Matahari have represented the middle-ground. Would you agree? Its not that we don’t recognise the existence of extremist interpretations of Islam we just don’t make them ourselves and are aware of many others both throughout history and now who don’t do so.

With Best Wishes

Paul