Ah! I’ve found your writing on this matter. I would agree with you that Shah didn’t specifically claim to be a Sufi himself, let alone a teacher or master. However, there is a tone to his writing - in the prefaces and introductions where he is writing directly - that does suggest that he “knows”, that he does have a clear insight into the things he writes about.

It can’t be denied that he was a compiler of Sufi stories and sayings. His books should be able to stand on their own merits. The stories are worth discussing and meditating on. However, there is also nothing wrong with taking it all with a good grain of salt.

Nasrudin was quite a trickster, as shown by this tale:

A neighbour came to Nasrudin, asking to borrow his donkey. “It is out on loan,” the teacher replied. At that moment, the donkey brayed loudly inside the stable. “But I can hear it bray, over there.” “Whom do you believe,” asked Nasrudin, “me or a donkey?”

As the tale suggests, people should go by their own experience and not worry too much about authorities.

I’ve not heard of this malamati before. Sounds interesting. I’ll be keen to follow your blog and learn more.
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Hi Arizona

I definitely agree with that (will respond more in the later post) - personally I think the problem is not Shah as such but more the ‘fanboys’ that have elevated him to an almost God-like status.

One thing I have learned from Shah’s writings though is to judge someone on their won merits (or lack of) if you have to judge at all and so I try not to let these ‘enthusiasts’ influence my thinking on Shah, especially as he describes the process where people are elevated in such a fashion and warns against it. I think this happens in spite of his work not because of it - but there is a personality cult no doubt, and this is distasteful.

As you rightly say, your own experience is the only important thing in this regard.

The Malamati are very interesting - there is not much on the net about them. There’s a Wiki which I linked to somewhere I think.

Hi there- in regard to recognising teachers of genuine worth I think Shah stressed the importance of self honesty, the lack of which would undermine your “psychoological integrity”. Like attracts like, truth calls to truth etc.
Incidentally, what do people think of Omar Ali Shah and his standing in this context?

Been asked to repost this as problems with server. Have met Jim Moore whilst fixing his boiler and also Doris Lessing under similar circumstances, whom he comments on in connection with Mr Shah. Doris Lessing is a lovely lady giving the impression of great intelligence as well as having a youthful air about her quite suprising in someone of her age.

Anyway Mr Moore kindly gave me a copy of his latest book Gurdjieffian Confessians a self remembered. Have to say the title puzzled me. Somehow Gurdjieffian Confessians A Self Remembered life would have had a certain ring to it. It is full of comments about various people and organisations that have some experience of albeit some of them briefly.

Did e-mail Jim to ask him if his being an “unrepentant Gurdjieffian apologist “ made him more generous in his interpretations of Gurdjieff’s behaviour than of other peoples. There are too many examples to list here but did discuss with him his comments on Bennett/ Shah vis-a- vis the former giving Coombe Springs to the latter which he makes quite a bit of in his latest book. Did suggest that the saying whatever you give to God he gives back 10 times to you could apply here as Mr Bennett later acquired Sherbourne House where he was able to share spiritual tecniques and knowledge with hundreds of pupils who would eternally be grateful to him. In this respect since reading this blog also came across George Bennett’s (JGB’s son) comment on this incident which had never read before which is also available on the web somewhere.

Hi Paul

apologies for the missing comment before - server was down for a while and a few things went awol I guess.

I might check out Mr Moore’s book, it seems interesting. I actually agree with a lot of what he says in some cases - or rather, I think he makes valid points about discrepancies in Shah’s work. where I would disagree is in two main areas: 1) taking these on ‘face value’ and refusing to acknowledge even the possibility of a teaching function in may of his actions (it is fine to deny the teaching function in this way but then you would have to do it across the board - and that would include Gurdjieff) and 2) following on from this, to be not see the same problems in Gurdjieff’s life and work. And that is before you even bring in any ‘malamati’ concepts.

Imo, there is a large degree of ‘sleep’ in the Gurdjieff work - but to be fair there is perhaps even more in the ‘Sufi’ work (particularly the Shahbots’) but I am probably in no position to judge.

One thing though” although we cannot (and should not) judge such things, we must also pay people a certain amount of respect in what they think themselves about such issues when they affect them directly and Bennett himself said when asked what he had gained from Shah and the Coombe Springs incident “freedom”. That should probably sum it up although I have also heard that Shah himself contributed financially to Bennett’s new home after this incident.

I used to live a few doors down from Doris in West Hampstead when I lived in London and she would sometimes visit our rug shop nearby. She is indeed a lovely lady.

A slightly different perspective:- There is nothing new under the sun.

As a child brought up in the Jewish faith one of the holiest prayers is called the Shema.

Its opening line is “Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One. Later on as a teenager was introduced to the writings of Ibn al Arabi. The meaning and significance of that Oneness is explained in great detail by him.

Also as a young child written over the Ark of the Torah at our synagogue in Hebrew were the words translatable as “Know before whom you stand.” Recently asked a question on a Rumi website about the Leilat al Kadr (Night of Power ) and its exact date this year. Had this beautiful reply back “ I have consulted a learned friend of mine and he said according to Bayazid al Bestami you should treat every night as if it is the Night of Power and every person you meet as Al Khidr. Same thing different words.

The Shema goes on to say

“You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might”. Do not feel this needs any extra comment.

Many people have put this in different ways according to the time and culture and the ability of people to understand. Sometimes these messages get stultified and their meaning forgotten and distorted. So you have Orthodox Judaism and dare one say it Orthodox Gurdjieffianism where keeping the message pure becomes more important than the direction in which they were intended to point.

As a Muslim would say “ May God guide you and us on the right path.”

Thanks for that Paul.

It amplifies what I have been thinking and writing lately about literalism and analogy and also the project I mentioned above.

I suppose it is inevitable that when the ‘living embodiment’ (ugly term but I can’t find another right now) of an aspect of the teaching dies that the form of that teaching will become ‘rigid’.

Do you have a link for that Rumi forum? I have been avoiding newsgroups for a while but the comment was a very insightful and valuable one.

Allow me, if I may, two comments - one on the Blog, the other on the responses to it.

On the Blog
Those who have read Shah with an open mind, that is without bringing pre-conceived notions into play or without “wisecracking” as Gurdjieff says, would arrive at similar clarity as you did. A measure of clarity is essential before going into spirituality. But while unprejudiced reading of Shah is a help, it is of course not a prerequisite to obtaining clarity, otherwise the majority who have not read him would, by definition, be “blurred”.

On the responses
Experience is knowledge, as opposed to information which is data. To judge by one’s experience is valid but only when it is valid. Rumi says every thought has a physical equivalent. Take say a ruler to be the physical equivalent of experience. So the statement “I only judge (things, people) by my experience” is equivalent to “I only measure (lengths, objects) by my ruler”. The latter will yield correct result only when the ruler is accurate, and that is when not distorted for examples by temperature, pressure or manufacture. As above, so is below.

The value of reading Shah is for the possibility to reach the clarity, the lucidity such as the above. His writing is not about more and more description of say the Malamatis or other “Orders” of the Sufis, or about their this or that ritual because such description is data which is only useful up to point.

The value of being a Sufi (which is really being a human as a human should be, regardless of religious or other trappings) is to have the correct experience or knowledge - to have the “accurate ruler”.

Thanks and all the best.

I only want to say that the new phase is open since 1982. It is not anything special in an exterior view, but the people who are in the new phase grows quickly and high. The master who guides the new phase worked with Omar Ali shah and was teached by his father, his name is Alfredo O., but the new phase is not very good estimated by Agha (who dead recently in Spain) and his disciples. It is said that Agha and Idries Shah way became something too much intelectual, forgotten something very important in a true teaching, the experience of the true.
Sorry for my bad English because I´m spanish, an if you want more information you may read a book called “The way” of Juan Sgolastra, there is nothing new in this book only a simple way to find the true with a true master.

Thank for reading me and good luck.

Sorry, the website is not the one which appears in the previous message.

It´s http://www.lifeqp.org.ar.

Thank You and Good bye.

Don’t know if anybody is still reading this thread but if not can be like Zen monk going into the forest to play Shokuhachi to trees.

Rulers are always relative even on the physical plane to the place in which they are found but adequate for measuring in that place (Einstein and relativity). If something is of a different order of the place then it will be well capable of making itself known to you if it wishes. Has anyone read K R Abbott flatlands a very funny Victorian book.which illustrates this beautifully. My teacher long since deceased certainly had no problem grabbing my attention when I wasn’t even looking for one as far as I was aware.

There are so many claims made by different people.

Idries Shah:  teacher for next 500 years
Sheikh Nizami of Cyprus: Sultan of the Saints. expects the 2nd coming of Christ and the Mahdi in his lifetime.

Vossarian: Is Jesus.

How is one to come to a conclusion with one’s relative ruler.

Well if the reality wants you it will get you so don’t worry.

Strange - I was talking about Flatland with the missus a few nights ago. First time I’d thought about it in decades.

I have a theory about these apparently conflicting claims. Must dash now but may talk about it later.

Hi there. I was passing and would offer a few comments. Firstly the malamati way is known as “the way of blame” - a good example of this is the role Shams e Tabriz played in the develpoment of Rumi. Shams walked the malamati way and attracted the wrath of Rumi’s students as he separated Rumi from the intellectual path which was blocking his progress.
Secondly Gurdjieff was not held in high regard by some Naqshbandis as he failed the most basic of tests i.e that of controlling the instincts.
Thirdly Sheikh Nazim has been preaching the second coming etc since the early 1980’s. He used to teach Sufism but he now only preaches mainstream Islam and is creating many potential martyrs in the US.
Fourthly Idries Shah taught a version of sufism but outside Islam. He had considerable intellectual ability but failed to deal with the commanding nafs of his students. It was also felt that he failed to reach his potential/achieve his true purpose in this life.

Re your comment on Idries Shah “It was always felt” It was always felt by whom as a matter of interest.

Regards

Paul

Does anyone know where Idris Shah and his brother Omar Ali Shah are buired? I understand it’s somewhere in or around London

From Yahoo Caravansarai:
In a message dated 3/1/2006 8:51:59 AM, shereef_umar@… writes:

>

Howdy Umar,

I have a photo copy which was sent to me by a friend. It shows a flat slab
of white marble in the shape of a pointed arch. On it is found:

IDRIES SHAH

16th June 1924 - 23rd November 1996

Do Not Look At My Outward Shape

But Take What Is In My Hand

Here are directions to the grave site included on the photocopy I was sent:

It is possible to get there by train in less than one hour from Waterloo
Station. The stop is Brookwood Station, and the cemetery starts just next to
the
platform. Going to the right, after about five minutes walking there is a
Muslim area (called M1), and not far from the main road near a mausoleum, is the
white marble tombstone shown in the photograph.

Hope this is of some use. If you live near London and make the visit, please
relate to us here your experience.

All my best,
obo

Sorry for my english, i speak french. Il live in Bruxelles. I’ve read a lot of Idries Shah’s books and sufi’s books (Rumi, Kayyam, Omar Ali Shah, omar michael burk etc..). These books touch me.

I would like to study in this way, i would like to find an authentic teacher, the successors of I. Shah or Omar ali Shah. Il don’t search emotions or excitation. But humility.  If someone can help me - it is quiet difficult - you can write me :

Thanks

Hi Sebastien and Paul Lerner…

It’s a late reply but I’ve just found this blog.

I’m quite unaware of myself but I have some awareness as to some of my motivations. I have ‘Learning how to Learn’ and God’s permission of self-honesty to thank for this.

For the last year I have pushed myself to examine what I expected from, and that which impelled me to, the ‘spiritual path’. Regrettably, most of my former - and still some current - motivations are born from ontological fear and the need for succor. However I have some humanity and, mercifully, I am not completely ignorant. I’m working on my motivations and trying to live with personal integrity. I was an accomplished people pleaser also...being very ‘devout’ and ‘sincere’.

My point is I believe this:

God will reveal the Path to us when room is made for God. Self is such an ingenious manifestation which, I believe now, puts on a magnificent show of ‘I’...and has me believing that this ego is actually ‘I’.

Friends, my hopes are often ambitious; my humility often an attempt to assert control and alay my fear of death; I talk too much ad do not do half of that which I pronounce as valuable.

I wrote looking for a teacher some time ago. I remembered one of the masters’ instructions (I do not remember Whom, but it was an ancient) to they who think they are ready to be taught: Often we are not who believe we are teachable. Desire is not enough. I do believe this. So I am trying to leave off my fascination with ‘esotericism’ and thrilling knowledge, diversion, enertainment and stimulation and funny ideas about Khidr and Revelation and, instead, figure out Who I Am and why I think I am.

I’m not always so serious by the way.

I’d be interested in dialogue so I’ll walk this way again or anyone can

In love and with sincere wishes for fulfilment to you all,

Gerard

We have learned a lot from Idries Shah’s books and it has affected our thinking and made us more broadminded without leaving our respected formal religion.
Idries Shah was right for example about SUBUD. It may be a genuine phenomenon springing from a person’s psyche but the organisation is unnecessary and indeed unhealthy. His telling the Mevliyya people in Turkey that the whirling has no basis today also appears to be correct and acceptable to those who are more discerning but for the common people if they abandon it , they need a substitute and who can provide them that in such volatile times.
As for his translations of classical works, Shaykh Nazim told me that his translations are good and “Give my salams to him”
Wrong for Moore to say those bad things about Idries Shah’s father who wrote a few good books and was the European reporter for Genuine Islam, Singapore in the mid30s.
I love Idries Shah. He moulded my mind so that I could think in a non-linear manner when required.AlFatihah.
zainuddin

The website http://www.arica.org is very interesting in this regard.

I have been studying the works of Idries Shah for over thirty years, and they continue to fascinate me.  In reply to Sebastian, finding a teacher is not as difficult as it may at first appear.  Shah’s books are a great help, and you might find it useful to strive for union with the spirit which moves throughout his work, whereas an intellectual reading of them will get you almost nowhere.  Here and there in these materials are hints:  Think of people you admire.  Ask yourself what you admire about them.  Ask yourself which of these virtues you have and which you do not.  Use whatever pretext you can think of to get near such people so that some of their “baraka” may be passed to you.  If the person eventually disappoints you, that may (or may not) only show that your perceptions have been relatively clarified.  Search until you find another admirable individual or even group.  None of these, of course, must have even heard of Sufism, and their skill may not be overt spirituality.  It may be mechanics, cooking or anything at all.  The important thing is that they have something you can admire.  In Shah’s THE DERMIS PROBE is a story about a Sufi master who admired a certain trait in a criminal!  In his REFLECTIONS I. Shah writes, “What makes you like me?”

A wonderful posting Roger, it brings to mind a comment made by Hazrat Inyaht Khan to the effect that there was false democracy and true democracy, the latter being no different than true aristocracy, and the difference between the two being the difference between the statements: “Nobody is better than I am,” and “I am the equal of anyone.” Only with the latter attitude is it possible to appreciate the inner qualities and abilities of excellence and to the extent possible participate in them.  I’m also reminded of a quote attributed to Mozart: “Neigher a lofty intellect, nor imagination, nor both together go to the making of genius.  Love, love, love--that is the soul of genius.”