it sounds like you like me were more interested in excitment than real effort and i found like you that the excitement can get tiresome. Which is like any kind of entertainment from drugs to sport or whatever. my 2 pence.
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Not so sure about that. I’ve had my fair share of excitement and in lieu of ‘real work’ I often resorted to more but I always wanted to trade it in.

For me it was more that I couldn’t find the ‘way in’ in order to give up things I didn’t want in my life or otherwise change. Perhaps there is no ‘way in’ or perhaps it is just not for me. Doesn’t matter.

So I’ve decided to stick with what I am. What else can you do anyway really?

Hi Segovius. Hope you and the family are doing well!

I think it’s OK that you are abandoing esotericism. Perhaps the question is whether esotericism is going to abandon you.

Besides the fact that ‘esotericism’ as a general term became completely pejorative regarding teachers and teachings, still it gives some ground for so many unhappy people to lighten their spiritual anxieties for a while, and later on to find a more meaningful way or to return to their former lives with more balance and confidence.

Regarding what you have just realized, I think maybe in fact you just remembered your state of ‘seeking for truth’. I strongly believe too, that the doorway is through self-acceptance, as you say.

esotericism as opposed to esoterism? )

No, they can both go. I’m sticking with eroticism though.

this to say till ur next disappointment with yet another -ism?

Well, most things are bad quality now and declining standards have been raised to an artform so I would say that disappointment is a kind of benchmark of taste almost.

You should try it. I can heartily recommend it and there is so much to be disappointed with isn’t there? People, teachers, what passes these days for ‘ideas’, quality of posts - it’s endless really.......

re: your criticism of declining standards

i assume this is versus old standards set by ..? your leaning towards things unorthodox would need to make the above criticism look paradoxical, wouldn’t it?

Am I misunderstanding or are you on a bit of a downer at the moment Segovius. Will you cheer up if Barcelona beat Arsenal. Low quality post I know.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul, I’ll definitely cheer up when Barça win but I’m pretty happy right now as it happens. Post quality is a winner don’t worry :D

Sounds like a good move to abandon ‘Esotericism’ (in quotation marks).  And good to hear also that you’re not giving up the search (if I understood you correctly?).

The problem as I see it is that we do need the help of people who are going in the direction we want to go, and are a bit further on the path.  ("No-one can escape from prison without the help of those who have escaped before” - In Search of the Miraculous - Ouspensky).  Without help we can spend years going round in circles, convinced that we’re getting somewhere.

If we accept that this is the case, and assuming we think it’s possible that such people might actually exist, the next problem is how to find them and not fall foul of the ‘gurus, hucksters and snake-oil salesmen’ of which there are so many these days.  How to discriminate?  How to recognise someone who really knows something?

Can’t remember where I heard this but it’s said that the difference between a cult and a school is that a cult is easy to join but difficult to leave, whereas a school is hard to join but you can leave any time you like.

Hi Robert, thanks for that. I think you are essentially right but there is a further problem which I am going to post about soon (it will be the last on this issue - promise).

Basically - and this is only my personal experience so please no-one think I am making an absolute statement - even (actually imo especially) the ‘genuine’ groups are peopled my metaphysical madmen to a certain extent and, more devastatingly from my pov, people who exhibit all the ‘qualities’ I would not tolerate for 5 minutes in the ‘real world’: ie arrogance, fanaticism, cultic behaviour, wooly thinking, rudeness and general impoliteness.

These last are especially marked in my experience in Shah/Agha groups. I can tolerate arrogance and cultic behaviour and I would even expect it in groups such as those of, say, Osho or Andrew Cohen, but in Shah groups it poses a conundrum. Ie: if Shah outlines all this behaviour and warns against it and yet we see Shah ‘students’ indulging in it then what is happening?

The case with Shah’s brother’s old groups is different as the Shah camp generally hold that the two diverged and that the Agha groups are in error (to put it mildly). It was in relation to these groups that I had my worst experiences of oddness - actually more specifically rudeness - and I had to ask myself one question: why would I tolerate this in a group if I wouldn’t tolerate it in the world? Or, conversely, why can I not accept it in the world if I have to accept it in a group. In the end I decided I didn’t want to accept it in either - though there were other reasons which I won’t go into.

I only mention this as an illustration of the problem and not to point the finger - which is why I won’t be arguing the point or discussing it with anyone who feels like having a go - the problem which is essentially: if a teaching appears to be genuine (say, Shah’s) and if it claims certain things (say, that you need a teacher to progress past a certain point) and yet if all the groups surrounding that teaching are ‘weird’ in some way or fail the tests that the teaching itself lays down and there are no other possibilities - then where does that leave you?

Well, you have to make some choices: dissimulate or rationalize ("Shah is my teacher even though he’s dead” is always a good one or perhaps “Shah will be the teacher for the next 500 years”, even better), find some other (easier or false) system and justify it, keep going regardless or give up.

Giving it up eventually became the only option from my personal pov but I am not so interested in that - what is interesting (to me) is that it brings a certain freedom I had never suspected. That is suspicious in itself.

I agree with you completely Segovius - why accept behaviour in a group that one wouldn’t accept in ordinary life?  Surely the aim of trying to develop in this way is to become more ‘normal’ - more as a human being should be - rather than wierd or arrogant.  If those who are apparently further ahead on the path I’m following are like that then I’d have to ask whether I’m on the right path!

But is “find some other (easier or false) system and justify it” the only possibility?  How about finding some other genuine system - one that may seem easier in some ways (less rudeness, less wierdness) - but may actually be much harder in ways that really count?  And one where you still have that feeling of freedom even while being involved in it?

I was told by a friend I consider knowledgeable with respect to Shah’s groups, that he knows of numbers of group members that had not read a single Shah book.  Further, they were loud, boisterous, uncouth, unorganized, unable to carry out commands, un-lots of things. That got me to thinking – what is going on here?  Then I thought perhaps there are lots of different types of groups, and that perhaps some of them look just terrible – something one would definitely have trouble associating with – and yet, in some strange way they are still authentic.  The only thing I can come up with at the moment is that perhaps these people perform a function – and perhaps that function is to transmit an energy, something that has a life and a purpose which is not associated with ordinary acceptable behavior.  I would imagine that these people themselves do not know what their role really is.  And this certainly doesn’t mean that the goofy cults we all see are in actuality performing this function. I realize that “Do not look at my face, but take what is in my hand” may apply to ordinary people, not just to master teachers.

hi Terry!

Good to see you again

a.

To Terry:

Apologies, slip of memory here.

a.

(*nice meeting all the same)

Hi Andrew! Good to see you as well.

Terry: I have heard similar things and actually have some experience about the not having read Shah books though the person I am thinking of was not ‘uncouth’ in any way and (imo) already very wise.

When I first started reading Shah it was about 3 or 4 years before I heard he was supposed to be a ‘teacher’ (curiously from wannabe disciples) - before that I had assumed he was a sufi who was ‘preparing the ground’ for the teaching or teacher who was not so obvious or to come in the future. I still hold this view actually.

Another factor may be this: Shah explicitly states in many places (as do many stories and Octagon publications) that the Sufis operate ‘false’ teachings, groups and projections in order to distract those who are not suitable and basically leave those who are getting on with real work in peace.

It is not impossible (to my mind) that Shah fulfilled this function - people usually assume it was someone/something else that he referred to but it is difficult to see what this might be.

My teacher genuine or not, had 3 or 4 sayings amongst many that he came out with that might have relevance.

1) Used to quote Jiminy Cricket “Always let your conscience be your guide”

2) If people spent more time worrying about what they were doing and less time worrying about what other people were dong the world would be a much happier place.

3) Another one he was fond of is “patience and perseverance will take a snail to Jerusalem.”

4) He also told me to say “thank you “ more and on another occasion “all there is is thankfullness”

That’s when he wasn’t putting me through horrendously embarrassing situations which he wa a master of doing (laugh emoticon).

Off to watch the football now.

Regards

Paul

May be a bit late, judging from dates, but just like to say like you I have abandoned searching for “The Way” many time through out my life, but eventually slipped back in. Each time a little older and wiser. You begin to see all the pit falls before they happen and learn to stay clear. I now have no teacher, no master, no guru, but an inner knowledge, accumulated through the years. Krishnamurti was reported as saying to his followers, “you don’t need a teacher, you don’t need me” Follow your inner wisdom, it is there if you listen, meditate and listen. I hope we meet on your next excursion. Hope I didn’t sound too much like a preacher or some self-indulgent guru. Thanks for reading.